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	<title>Comments on: Carbon cost of Downloads vs. CDs</title>
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	<link>http://www.katescomment.com/carbon-cost-download-vs-cd/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on British ICT, energy &#38; environment, &#34;Cloud&#34;, and security from Memset&#039;s MD</description>
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		<title>By: Kate Craig-Wood</title>
		<link>http://www.katescomment.com/carbon-cost-download-vs-cd/comment-page-1/#comment-537</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Craig-Wood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.katescomment.com/?p=173#comment-537</guid>
		<description>@Doug Damn, an excellent point, and a genuine error on my part. I was thinking of books when I first came up with the notion of &quot;carbon sequestration on a book shelf&quot;, but of course paper is wood which is formed by photosynthesis capturing gaseous CO2 from the atmosphere.

You are quite correct that plastic comes from fossil fuels, which are quite happily sequestered beneath the oceans. Extracting it and turning it into plastic is a good use for it (compared with the profligacy of burning it), but cannot count as useful carbon sequestration when viewing the balance of atmospheric carbon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Doug Damn, an excellent point, and a genuine error on my part. I was thinking of books when I first came up with the notion of &#8220;carbon sequestration on a book shelf&#8221;, but of course paper is wood which is formed by photosynthesis capturing gaseous CO2 from the atmosphere.</p>
<p>You are quite correct that plastic comes from fossil fuels, which are quite happily sequestered beneath the oceans. Extracting it and turning it into plastic is a good use for it (compared with the profligacy of burning it), but cannot count as useful carbon sequestration when viewing the balance of atmospheric carbon.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.katescomment.com/carbon-cost-download-vs-cd/comment-page-1/#comment-536</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.katescomment.com/?p=173#comment-536</guid>
		<description>Nice piece. Just one comment, though. The idea that the CD and case on your shelf is carbon sequestration is a bit perverse. Firstly, no carbon has been taken out of the atmosphere to sequester, and secondly it would have been far more effective (as per your production emission calculation) just to leave the carbon in the ground where it had been happily sequestered for hundred of millions of years :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice piece. Just one comment, though. The idea that the CD and case on your shelf is carbon sequestration is a bit perverse. Firstly, no carbon has been taken out of the atmosphere to sequester, and secondly it would have been far more effective (as per your production emission calculation) just to leave the carbon in the ground where it had been happily sequestered for hundred of millions of years <img src='http://www.katescomment.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kate Craig-Wood</title>
		<link>http://www.katescomment.com/carbon-cost-download-vs-cd/comment-page-1/#comment-445</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Craig-Wood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 09:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.katescomment.com/?p=173#comment-445</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re a luddite and want to burn your carbon credits (OK so we don&#039;t have them &lt;em&gt;quite&lt;/em&gt; yet, but you see what i mean) so that you can cuddle out-dated media that is, of course, your prerogative. ;) I am no different - my carbon-decadence is my motorbike.

As for compression, this is not the right blog to have an audiophile debate. However, since I have a Masters in biomedical science, specialising in neurology, I feel I should point out that since you are a human being you are neurologically incapable of detecting the losses induced by good quality psychoacoustic coding. Regardless, even if you were downloading FLAC files and then re-coding them locally into mp3 (which some people I know do) it would still be vastly less carbon-intensive than a CD.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re a luddite and want to burn your carbon credits (OK so we don&#8217;t have them <em>quite</em> yet, but you see what i mean) so that you can cuddle out-dated media that is, of course, your prerogative. <img src='http://www.katescomment.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  I am no different &#8211; my carbon-decadence is my motorbike.</p>
<p>As for compression, this is not the right blog to have an audiophile debate. However, since I have a Masters in biomedical science, specialising in neurology, I feel I should point out that since you are a human being you are neurologically incapable of detecting the losses induced by good quality psychoacoustic coding. Regardless, even if you were downloading FLAC files and then re-coding them locally into mp3 (which some people I know do) it would still be vastly less carbon-intensive than a CD.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.katescomment.com/carbon-cost-download-vs-cd/comment-page-1/#comment-444</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.katescomment.com/?p=173#comment-444</guid>
		<description>Hmm...

This fails to take into account the tactile satisfaction of owning a CD, its longer life span, it&#039;s re-usability for playback in other devices, and the potential for lending to friends or even resale and subsequent re-use.

Also, you&#039;ve failed to take into account the massive loss of audio quality in a typical downloaded. Whilst it&#039;s true that lossless formats are commonly available, they aren&#039;t supported by online retailers, they are generally incompatible with non-pc (or non-Mac) devices, and they always increase the file sizes substantially.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm&#8230;</p>
<p>This fails to take into account the tactile satisfaction of owning a CD, its longer life span, it&#8217;s re-usability for playback in other devices, and the potential for lending to friends or even resale and subsequent re-use.</p>
<p>Also, you&#8217;ve failed to take into account the massive loss of audio quality in a typical downloaded. Whilst it&#8217;s true that lossless formats are commonly available, they aren&#8217;t supported by online retailers, they are generally incompatible with non-pc (or non-Mac) devices, and they always increase the file sizes substantially.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Craig-Wood</title>
		<link>http://www.katescomment.com/carbon-cost-download-vs-cd/comment-page-1/#comment-443</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Craig-Wood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.katescomment.com/?p=173#comment-443</guid>
		<description>@Cait My assumption is indeed that a Downloader will already have spent carbon on embedded energy in a PC plus a stereo - most people have a PC and a stereo for other purposes, not purely for playing downloaded music.

The only embedded carbon that we would really need to consider is the PC, and further one could subtract the embedded carbon in a CD player - I don&#039;t have one anymore, for example (it broke and I did not need to replace it).

Thus, the real comparison is between the portion of time used by the PC (which has ~1,000 kWh embedded energy, say 1% of time/function is downloading, with a 4-year refresh cycle, is 2.5 kWh/year) and a CD player (guess ~200 kWh, 8-year refresh, 25 kWh/year).

Although your logic does not put the argument back in favor of CDs, it is a very good one and we should not forget embedded energy. Ultimately, all we really need though is a strong computer, a fast Internet link, and several audio-visual systems to do everything we need in a home - commonly called &#039;device convergence&#039;. Unfortunately, that is not in the interests of the consumer electronics manufacturers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Cait My assumption is indeed that a Downloader will already have spent carbon on embedded energy in a PC plus a stereo &#8211; most people have a PC and a stereo for other purposes, not purely for playing downloaded music.</p>
<p>The only embedded carbon that we would really need to consider is the PC, and further one could subtract the embedded carbon in a CD player &#8211; I don&#8217;t have one anymore, for example (it broke and I did not need to replace it).</p>
<p>Thus, the real comparison is between the portion of time used by the PC (which has ~1,000 kWh embedded energy, say 1% of time/function is downloading, with a 4-year refresh cycle, is 2.5 kWh/year) and a CD player (guess ~200 kWh, 8-year refresh, 25 kWh/year).</p>
<p>Although your logic does not put the argument back in favor of CDs, it is a very good one and we should not forget embedded energy. Ultimately, all we really need though is a strong computer, a fast Internet link, and several audio-visual systems to do everything we need in a home &#8211; commonly called &#8216;device convergence&#8217;. Unfortunately, that is not in the interests of the consumer electronics manufacturers.</p>
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		<title>By: Cait</title>
		<link>http://www.katescomment.com/carbon-cost-download-vs-cd/comment-page-1/#comment-442</link>
		<dc:creator>Cait</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.katescomment.com/?p=173#comment-442</guid>
		<description>Ah yes, but that would imply having a fully integrated system at home instead of a non-system of isolated pieces.

The unfortunate problem with technological solutions is that they all have a large up-front cost, whereas CD&#039;s or indeed, individual downloads to a single computer have a minimal investment. Given how fast technology is changing / continues to change, it would be disengenuous to suggest that whatever today&#039;s solution is will be the optimum one next week / next year.

Every time one invests in tech, one creates more potentially hazardous waste to be disposed of, and more stuff which will probably end up being disposed of before it has worn out, thus (as an old socialist at heart ;) falling prey to consumerism as well as un-environmentally conscious fall out! Compare the cost of the purchase of all the new tech you need, in CO2 tonnage, versus purchasing the odd CD until your existing equipment wears out X years down the line.

Heh. And its expensive. I&#039;m being naughty really in this mini-debate because I&#039;m in the process of storing all my iTunes MP3&#039;s on an external hard drive so that as my poor old G4 is biting the dust, my multiple tens of megs of music will not end up on the scrap heap. But I&#039;m not going to attempt to string all my silo&#039;d pieces together. Not yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah yes, but that would imply having a fully integrated system at home instead of a non-system of isolated pieces.</p>
<p>The unfortunate problem with technological solutions is that they all have a large up-front cost, whereas CD&#8217;s or indeed, individual downloads to a single computer have a minimal investment. Given how fast technology is changing / continues to change, it would be disengenuous to suggest that whatever today&#8217;s solution is will be the optimum one next week / next year.</p>
<p>Every time one invests in tech, one creates more potentially hazardous waste to be disposed of, and more stuff which will probably end up being disposed of before it has worn out, thus (as an old socialist at heart <img src='http://www.katescomment.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  falling prey to consumerism as well as un-environmentally conscious fall out! Compare the cost of the purchase of all the new tech you need, in CO2 tonnage, versus purchasing the odd CD until your existing equipment wears out X years down the line.</p>
<p>Heh. And its expensive. I&#8217;m being naughty really in this mini-debate because I&#8217;m in the process of storing all my iTunes MP3&#8242;s on an external hard drive so that as my poor old G4 is biting the dust, my multiple tens of megs of music will not end up on the scrap heap. But I&#8217;m not going to attempt to string all my silo&#8217;d pieces together. Not yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Craig-Wood</title>
		<link>http://www.katescomment.com/carbon-cost-download-vs-cd/comment-page-1/#comment-428</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Craig-Wood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.katescomment.com/?p=173#comment-428</guid>
		<description>@Charles Your example just goes to show how hard it can be to accurately asses carbon footprints! Trying to work out transport footprints is very vague indeed, and as you have highlighted very dependent on how good your logistics are (yet another way ICT can reduce emissions - fill up those vans!). However, the carbon cost of manufacturing the CD massively outweighs it regardless of which method you use. I more wanted to illustrate a &quot;common sense&quot; approach. It is amazing how many people forget that the carbon output of a vehicle is proportional to the petrol input, for instance. ;)

@Cait Thanks. :) The problems of downloaded music management are easily solved with application of technology, and CDs are just as vulnerable (scratches, theft etc). Personally, however, I am moving away from downloading, even owning music; far easier to just stream what you want on-demand from the Cloud with last.fm / spotify etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Charles Your example just goes to show how hard it can be to accurately asses carbon footprints! Trying to work out transport footprints is very vague indeed, and as you have highlighted very dependent on how good your logistics are (yet another way ICT can reduce emissions &#8211; fill up those vans!). However, the carbon cost of manufacturing the CD massively outweighs it regardless of which method you use. I more wanted to illustrate a &#8220;common sense&#8221; approach. It is amazing how many people forget that the carbon output of a vehicle is proportional to the petrol input, for instance. <img src='http://www.katescomment.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>@Cait Thanks. <img src='http://www.katescomment.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  The problems of downloaded music management are easily solved with application of technology, and CDs are just as vulnerable (scratches, theft etc). Personally, however, I am moving away from downloading, even owning music; far easier to just stream what you want on-demand from the Cloud with last.fm / spotify etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Cait</title>
		<link>http://www.katescomment.com/carbon-cost-download-vs-cd/comment-page-1/#comment-426</link>
		<dc:creator>Cait</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.katescomment.com/?p=173#comment-426</guid>
		<description>Well done, Kate, that&#039;s a brilliant piece of work.

I&#039;m a bit of aln old-skooler whewn it comes to music, so I tend to prefer to buy CD&#039;s. Hmmmm. 

The only problem with the purchase of downloads is that one does tend to lose them (mostly because the systems you purchased from don&#039;t maintain a record you can access of what you&#039;ve bought, and can therefore recover), so if your laptop goes &#039;blurt&#039;, you have to purchase them again *or* dump them on to permanent storage ie: DVDs/CD&#039;s!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well done, Kate, that&#8217;s a brilliant piece of work.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a bit of aln old-skooler whewn it comes to music, so I tend to prefer to buy CD&#8217;s. Hmmmm. </p>
<p>The only problem with the purchase of downloads is that one does tend to lose them (mostly because the systems you purchased from don&#8217;t maintain a record you can access of what you&#8217;ve bought, and can therefore recover), so if your laptop goes &#8216;blurt&#8217;, you have to purchase them again *or* dump them on to permanent storage ie: DVDs/CD&#8217;s!</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.katescomment.com/carbon-cost-download-vs-cd/comment-page-1/#comment-425</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.katescomment.com/?p=173#comment-425</guid>
		<description>Rather than check all your figures
I just checked the delivery of those CDs.

My sample of ten CDs weigh 980g, 
so, for 1000, with packing, we could say 100kg.

An appropriate carrier might be a Citroën Berlingo
which has a max. payload of 750-850kg.
Such a vehicle will vehicle pumps out ~150g/km CO₂,
as in http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=22372
&amp; http://www.citroen.fr/. This may be an optimistic figure.

Thus over 2@200 miles = ~640km
there is an emission of  640*150g = 96kg, or 96g CO₂,
coincidentally, very similar to the weight of the CD in its jewel case.


So, double your CO₂ or number of CDs in the load.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rather than check all your figures<br />
I just checked the delivery of those CDs.</p>
<p>My sample of ten CDs weigh 980g,<br />
so, for 1000, with packing, we could say 100kg.</p>
<p>An appropriate carrier might be a Citroën Berlingo<br />
which has a max. payload of 750-850kg.<br />
Such a vehicle will vehicle pumps out ~150g/km CO₂,<br />
as in <a href="http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=22372" rel="nofollow">http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=22372</a><br />
&amp; <a href="http://www.citroen.fr/" rel="nofollow">http://www.citroen.fr/</a>. This may be an optimistic figure.</p>
<p>Thus over 2@200 miles = ~640km<br />
there is an emission of  640*150g = 96kg, or 96g CO₂,<br />
coincidentally, very similar to the weight of the CD in its jewel case.</p>
<p>So, double your CO₂ or number of CDs in the load.</p>
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